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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252106 by dusty » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:26 am

I think I understand where you are going with this BUT I don't believe there is all that much saw dust that escapes through the opening (Gap) between the underside of the table and the upper edges of the saw guard.

When I did my modifications they were inspired by some videos that I took of the table saw in action. I took videos from all different directions while cutting up a bunch of scrap materials and then sat and watched them all.

Thus my comment and opinion.

I did come to the conclusion that Icould reduce the saw dust by closing down the lower saw guard. I have one lower saw guard that is all sealed in that position and another that I use when adjustability is demanded (dados,tilted table, etc).

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"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252108 by reible » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:36 am

The problem with most of these modifications is that they don't work for all the various situations. Having a 12" sanding disk, having a conical sanding disk, having regular saw blades, having dado blades, having finger joint blades, and having a molding head all trying to use the same add on solution is a lot to ask.

Then add on the fact that the table tilts and it gets even more crazy. Oh but wait, the table also goes up and down.

A ground up design might have impossible or nearly so for shopsmith so they went with a less then robust dust collection system. That is definitely a downside to their product. People can complain about a lot oddities from the shopsmith system but for me most of those things I have over come. But I have not gotten a really great solution to the saw dust issues. Improved for sure but great, no that has been elusive.

Perhaps it is time to order an additional lower guard that I can modify for just the sawing application and then swap lower guards for the applications where that will not work. Not idea but possible better then what I now have.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252111 by ChrisNeilan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:23 pm

Ed, I totally understand your opinion. Myself, I love sawdust!

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Chris Neilan

Shopsmith Mark 7, Shopsmith Mark V 1982, shortened, Shopsmith 10 ER; Craftsman table saw (1964); Powermatic 3520B lathe

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252113 by jsburger » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:59 pm

Ed, I am not sure why you would expect the Shark Guard to make a difference in under table dust collection. Without upper guard dust collection I get saw dust all over the top of the table. Some of it probably falls down to accumulate under the table and on the floor. It comes from the back side of the blade turning up. I don't use my SS Shark Guard much any more because I have a Powermatic table saw. I have a Shark Guard on it and I can tell you it makes a big difference on the amount of saw dust on the top of the table Vs the stock non dust collector OEM upper blade guard. I do notice the same thing with the SS Shark guard however.

I suspect your problem is inadequate dust collection. Read any article on dust collection and it is all about air flow. Vacuums are all about suction not air flow. As such they don't work very well as dust collectors.

I used the Shark guard on the SS with a 1200CFM JDS dust collector when I was working out of my garage. I worked very well and made a big difference IMO. Now I have a dedicated shop with a Clearvue Max at almost 2000CFM and the results are even better. I use the SS saw mode mostly for cross cuts now days with an unmodified lower saw guard and the Clearview and get very little saw dust on the floor even with out the upper saw guard.

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John & Mary Burger
Eagle's Lair Woodshop
Hooper, UT

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252117 by reible » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:29 pm

jsburger wrote:Ed, I am not sure why you would expect the Shark Guard to make a difference in under table dust collection. Without upper guard dust collection I get saw dust all over the top of the table. Some of it probably falls down to accumulate under the table and on the floor. It comes from the back side of the blade turning up. I don't use my SS Shark Guard much any more because I have a Powermatic table saw. I have a Shark Guard on it and I can tell you it makes a big difference on the amount of saw dust on the top of the table Vs the stock non dust collector OEM upper blade guard. I do notice the same thing with the SS Shark guard however.

I suspect your problem is inadequate dust collection. Read any article on dust collection and it is all about air flow. Vacuums are all about suction not air flow. As such they don't work very well as dust collectors.

I used the Shark guard on the SS with a 1200CFM JDS dust collector when I was working out of my garage. I worked very well and made a big difference IMO. Now I have a dedicated shop with a Clearvue Max at almost 2000CFM and the results are even better. I use the SS saw mode mostly for cross cuts now days with an unmodified lower saw guard and the Clearview and get very little saw dust on the floor even with out the upper saw guard.


I'm not sure what to tell you. The videos are ALL from the table top perspective and none are from below. Since then some of the posts address the below aspects but those are just how discussions go. If you watch the videos you will see that they are all about how much sawdust is not be captured and is flying out.

Now I do know a fair amount about dust collection and I think that the majority of shopsmith users have either a shop vac or shopsmith dust collector. The one shopvac I have is actually rated better then the shopsmith one so this is pretty much what most people can expect given the equipment.

Now as an example of how the cfm vs suction works all I have to do is look at my Festool vac. The dust collection system is the best I have seen and no it is not a high cfm machine. So one needs to question the need for that.

Now in my situation I work most of the time outside so I don't have the same situation as others who have a shop to work in. I don't worry about the fine dust as I wear a dusk mask and the wind takes care of the fine dust about as well as anything. It is rare that I use my high cfm dust collector, more effort and no big advantages for me. I don't recall the actual numbers but it will be in the 1200-1500 range. I will try it when I can work it in but I really don't expect to see a major change due to the higher cfm but I could be wrong.

But since you already have a setup to test with perhaps you could help us out by duplicating the videos I did. I would specially like to see the view to the rear where I'm seeing little to no improvement. I don't care about dust collection on the table but what is escaping. If you are saying you see little escaping then it should be obvious in a video. The wood I was ripping was 3 feet long and I think the rest of the information has already been given.

I have no plans to ever have a larger dust collector then I have and I really don't want to have to deal with hooking that up every time I want to do some sawing so if it doesn't work with a shopvac then it doesn't work for me.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252208 by reible » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:55 pm

Head line reads "Shark guard redeems itself with dust collector attached"

Today I dug out my dust collector, got out the 4" hose that I store in a garbage can in a back shed(garbage can has a cyclone lid but I didn't use it today). I attached a short length of 4" hose to the collector. Used a 4" to 2-1/2" adapter and then a festool "Y" so I could run hoses to the shark and to the shopsmith lower guard.

I used pretty much the same set up as last time. There might have been a small change in blade height or slight change in the width of the parts cut but it would have been minor.

I'm uploading the videos now so when they are done I will post links. I haven't viewed the videos but unless I missed something I see very little sawdust going out the back now.

This still doesn't work well for me except if I had a very large job going on where a lot of ripping was involved I just wouldn't want to take the time for set up the dust collector.

What this does mean is if you have a dust collector set up in your shop then this appears to work fine. I still haven't looked it up but it is in the 1200 to 1500 cfm range so will yours work? Well I have no idea how low you can go and still have a good collection. I know that the 300 range is too low.

So more coming stay tuned.

If at sometime in the future I have the time I'd like to try my festool ct26 and see how well that works. Another option might be to run one vac to each guard and see if that works.....

BTW the lower guard still leaked like a sieve...........

Ed
Last edited by reible on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252209 by reible » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:09 pm

Videos are here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGGh9vKCa8I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCzHuqBqXOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEAGcz1Y1Rk

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252212 by reible » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:04 pm

Do keep in mind that the actual cfm is not going to be the numbers I mentioned do to several factors. Your conditions might be quite different then mine and so the results might be quite different.

I think I will spend a bit more time thinking this through as I'd really like the results with the dust collector and I diffidently disappointed with the results with the shopvac. Perhaps I need to find a why to have easier access to the dust collector for sawing and while that might take a lot of effort the results might we worth it.

Anyway I have to go take things apart and get them back in the garage and then get out the miter saw to cut some parts to length. If I have time I might drill a few more pen blanks......... got about an hour before I have to close down for the day.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252213 by jsburger » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:13 pm

You have just proven that a shop vac is not a dust collector. It is CFM CFM CFM not suction. The more CFM you have the better the dust collection will be and a lot of the "inadequacies" seen in the SS lower guard with a shop vac disappear.

I understand that a lot of us don't have the room or the finances for a proper dust collector so we make do. Given those consequences we have to live with it.

Thank you for vindicating the Shark Guard!

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John & Mary Burger
Eagle's Lair Woodshop
Hooper, UT

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Re: Today in the shop (Shark Guard testing)

#252214 by dusty » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:18 pm

I'm impressed. If my table top dust collection was that good, I'd be happier than a pig in the wallow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkJznoO3SIg

Since my under the table collection is quit good, I just might have to give serious consideration to a Shark Guard.

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"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.

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