Lousy jointer technique or maybe I just don't get it?

[wannabewoodworker]

Yesterday I was working on a new tablesaw sled for my TS 3650. I got the bottom done with purple heart runners all installed and it slides nicely. So I moved on to making some front and back rails. I had a nice piece of rough cut maple that I had picked up last year from a Craigslist cleanout of a guy who used to make big drums. The piece of wood was maybe 6" wide by almost 4 ft. long but the edges were not flat or parallel. The faces were not too bad so I went about running one of the edges through the jointer so I could then run the faces through the planer. To say I completely failed using the jointer would be an understatement. I think that the board was curved so that one edge was concave and the other convex. I just wanted to square up one edge then I could run it through the table saw to square it up. I just could not get one of the edges squared up using the jointer. It was only shaving off material from one end of the board and leaving the other end untouched? So I ended up with a board that was skinny on one end and fat on the other.

I realize I am in a serious learning phase here and I am trying to figure all this stuff out but if I can't learn how to properly mill rough lumber I cannot do anything. I am so damn frustrated I can't even put it in words. I obviously do not understand everything that is going on here and would truly appreciate someone straightening..... me out here so I can move past this. At this point I am less than confident going to the jointer with any piece of wood for fear of ruining the wood. I ran the piece through the planer only enough to clean the two faces up and that seemed to work fine but those faces are also bowed obviously if the edges are bowed. The planer my new to me Delta DC 380 15" machine is working awesome after I cleaned it and did all of the alignments and also sharpened the knives on my Tormek. The planed surfaces come out like glass. Thanks I really want to be able to go out and finish this sled today so that I can move forward but until I can figure out this milling problem I am frozen in time.

[garys]

I have my best luck with rough wood by taking it directly to the thickness planer. I run it through once, flip it, and run it again. After a couple of passes, I usually get one side or the other flat enough to be my "guide" side to finish it.

[fjimp]

I have my best luck with rough wood by taking it directly to the thickness planer. I run it through once, flip it, and run it again. After a couple of passes, I usually get one side or the other flat enough to be my "guide" side to finish it.

I agree with this idea and would add that I also switch end for end. Incidentally you really need to make extremely thin cuts with either a planer or jointer. Jim

[dusty]

I agree with this idea and would add that I also switch end for end. Incidentally you really need to make extremely thin cuts with either a planer or jointer. Jim

Depending on the type of wood and the grain pattern, flipping end for end can result in a rough cut (tear out). I attempt to feed wood into the planer and jointer in the direction of the grain (a cathedral helps determine that unfortunately there is not always a cathedral).

[pennview]

The typical sequence for truing lumber is to use the jointer to flatten one surface of your stock. Then put that flattened surface against the jointer fence and joint one edge. Then surface plane the second face, and then square the second edge on the table saw, but it really doesn't make any difference which order you use for these last two steps.

Squaring lumber on the 4" jointer can be difficult because of it's small size. This is especially true if it's bowed or twisted. For these types of defects, you're likely better off using a hand plane or electric model, or router and sled, to remove the high spots from the twisted/bowed pieces and then run them directly through the planer with the flattened surface down. With bowed boards, you can cut them in half at the highest point in the bow if the bow is severe.

For the edges of rough lumber, you can always get a reasonably straight edge using the bandsaw, then take it to the jointer.

Overall though, try to avoid buying rough lumber that isn't flat, or expect to have a good bit of wasted wood. If it's flat to start with, you can simply run it through the planer to surface both faces, then square an edge on the jointer, and the other edge on the table saw.

[bffulgham]

.....I realize I am in a serious learning phase here and I am trying to figure all this stuff out but if I can't learn how to properly mill rough lumber I cannot do anything. I am so damn frustrated I can't even put it in words. .......

Hey, Michael.....take a deep breath....you can do this. If I can do it, you can do it. Here's a couple of links that I've used to help me out with the process:[INDENT]Understanding Grain Direction
The Jointer's Jumpin'
All About Milling Lumber
Milling Stock Four-Square(Have not read this one in depth, but the initial part looks OK)

And there's this one from PTWFE

[/INDENT]I've been trying to find an old article from one of the woodworking rags that had excellent instructions for jointer techniques, but have not found it yet. I thought I had downloaded/saved it, but my filing system fails me today....I'll try to look some more later on......
Hang in there,
Bud

[JPG]

Things to 'observe' prior to determining game plan(e:D).

Straightness - end to end(bowed)

Flatness - side to side - cupped/'bumped'

Wind - side to side twist that also twists end to end

Edge straightness - wide/narrow areas

Last but not least, Grain orientation - cathedrals on the wide surface, angles on the edges - cathedrals on the edge(maybe)


Each must be taken into account.

As mentioned above a face(or two) must be flat prior to jointing an edge.

Farmer likes to flatten using a 'hand' plane and for screws in disguise is probably the best method.

Cupped(if not also twisted) responds to planer or the jointer(if started correctly).

Bowed pieces are best shortened first.

Once a face is 'flat', that face can be pressed against the jointer fence to produce a square(or bevel) edge.

However edge high/low areas must first be evened out just like the face(s). The high areas should be reduced by planing(with the jointer or hand plane) down the high areas. A barely bowed workpiece needs this the most(easily over looked and causes problems later).

Once two adjoining surfaces are 'correct', the other two are best straightened with a rip saw and planer, then the edge finished with the
jointer.

All this assumes two things:

1) The jointer is properly aligned(infeed surface to outfeed surface to(both) cutting knives.

2) The operator uses proper technique.

The infeed and outfeed top surface planes must be parallel. When the infeed and outfeed tables are at the same height they must be co-planer and raising or lowering maintains them parallel both across and end to end of the top surface.

The outfeed table plane should be at the same height as the blade at its apex.(Some would say slightly above, but that muddies up this 'conversation').

Successful technique includes starting and maintaining the workpiece contact against the reference surfaces(infeed and outfeed tables and the fence). The workpiece must be firmly held to the infeed table at the start, but as the workpiece is sufficiently onto the outfeed table it becomes the more important reference. If the tables and knives are dead on aligned, there is no difference, but perfection is seldom the case. Remember you are also(simultaneously) maintaining contact with the fence!!

As mentioned above shallow cuts are recommended(and less error prone).

With the grain means the knives are not pulling the fibers away from the workpiece, but pushing them against it.(That why it is called 'tear out';)).

FWIW the taper edge(repeatedly removing more and more material from one end) can be caused by the outfeed table being high(relative to the blade) or the workpiece bowed. i.e. the workpiece rocks during the pass.

End short course!:)

[wannabewoodworker]

[quote="JPG40504"]Things to 'observe' prior to determining game plan(e:D).

Straightness - end to end(bowed)

Flatness - side to side - cupped/'bumped'

Wind - side to side twist that also twists end to end

Edge straightness - wide/narrow areas

Last but not least, Grain orientation - cathedrals on the wide surface, angles on the edges - cathedrals on the edge(maybe)


Each must be taken into account.

As mentioned above a face(or two) must be flat prior to jointing an edge.

Farmer likes to flatten using a 'hand' plane and for screws in disguise is probably the best method.

Cupped(if not also twisted) responds to planer or the jointer(if started correctly).

Bowed pieces are best shortened first.

Once a face is 'flat', that face can be pressed against the jointer fence to produce a square(or bevel) edge.

However edge high/low areas must first be evened out just like the face(s). The high areas should be reduced by planing(with the jointer or hand plane) down the high areas. A barely bowed workpiece needs this the most(easily over looked and causes problems later).

Once two adjoining surfaces are 'correct', the other two are best straightened with a rip saw and planer, then the edge finished with the
jointer.

All this assumes two things:

1) The jointer is properly aligned(infeed surface to outfeed surface to(both) cutting knives.

2) The operator uses proper technique.

The infeed and outfeed top surface planes must be parallel. When the infeed and outfeed tables are at the same height they must be co-planer and raising or lowering maintains them parallel both across and end to end of the top surface.

The outfeed table plane should be at the same height as the blade at its apex.(Some would say slightly above, but that muddies up this 'conversation').

Successful technique includes starting and maintaining the workpiece contact against the reference surfaces(infeed and outfeed tables and the fence). The workpiece must be firmly held to the infeed table at the start, but as the workpiece is sufficiently onto the outfeed table it becomes the more important reference. If the tables and knives are dead on aligned, there is no difference, but perfection is seldom the case. Remember you are also(simultaneously) maintaining contact with the fence!!

As mentioned above shallow cuts are recommended(and less error prone).

With the grain means the knives are not pulling the fibers away from the workpiece, but pushing them against it.(That why it is called 'tear out']

Well JPG,
As always very detailed and concise. I think the error of my ways was in the board being bowed. This is the only explanation for what I experienced. I have painstakingly (sp) aligned my SS jointer and it is dead on as far as the knives in relation to the outfeed table. I did fail to check co-planarity if that is a word between the infeed and outfeed tables. I did however zero the two of them when setting the knife heights. The two were planer across the knive opening but I did not check the full surface end to end and across the width. I will do that next time I am in the shop just to be sure but my sense is that the tables are within acceptable tolerances and that the problem was mainly my lack of knowledge in milling rough/bowed lumber and obviously not checking for this until after I had made a pass already. I guess acquiring a jointer plane would be a good thing to do as I do not have one and the 3 planes I do ave are not really any good and are small hand planes. I did sharpen the blades on these planes but they are not of good quality to bother with. I have been looking for some used planes on CL but haven't found any worth looking at yet but I will.

[JPG]

Well JPG,
As always very detailed and concise. I think the error of my ways was in the board being bowed. This is the only explanation for what I experienced. I have painstakingly (sp) aligned my SS jointer and it is dead on as far as the knives in relation to the outfeed table. I did fail to check co-planarity if that is a word between the infeed and outfeed tables. I did however zero the two of them when setting the knife heights. The two were planer across the knive opening but I did not check the full surface end to end and across the width. I will do that next time I am in the shop just to be sure but my sense is that the tables are within acceptable tolerances and that the problem was mainly my lack of knowledge in milling rough/bowed lumber and obviously not checking for this until after I had made a pass already. I guess acquiring a jointer plane would be a good thing to do as I do not have one and the 3 planes I do ave are not really any good and are small hand planes. I did sharpen the blades on these planes but they are not of good quality to bother with. I have been looking for some used planes on CL but haven't found any worth looking at yet but I will.

As for the co-planarity, it will probably be good unless you have in/out feed tables that were not simultaneously ground. If it is 'off', not much other than re-grinding will be a good fix.





And you thought using the jointer was a 'no-brainer'!:D

[foxtrapper]

I've a very limited bit of experience with a jointer (or joiner as some call it). Enough to have learned there is a great deal of artistry involved in using this tool.

Sadly, this is an artistry I seem unable to master. I can cup, curl, twist and scoop wood superbly with it it. But I am absolutely incapable of making a flat edge.

I obviously apply pressure at the wrong time, and at the wrong locations.