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New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257600 by Ed in Tampa » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:43 pm

Have any of you seen the new Kreg Adaptive cutting system?,
https://www.kregtool.com/store/c73/syst ... aster-kit/

I would really like to hear the thoughts from Festool users.
The price of the Master kit $899 with saw, track, table and assorted fixtures is about where the Festool saw and MFT when they first started selling them here in the US. I suspect the price like the Festool prices will increase in time.

Come on Ed Reible weigh in on this one. ;)

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257603 by reible » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:34 am

This came up about a month ago. See:

community-f7/nteresting-festool-mft-copy-t22247.html

I haven't looked very closely at it. One thing I did notice was the 3/4" holes rather then 20mm which is pretty much the standard for MFT's.

I believe I had read since then that they went with the 96mm spacing so why they decided to go with the 3/4" holes is some sort of marketing ploy that I have a feeling will hurt them more the help them.

I have not seen on in the stores so I have no feel for how well they might seem to be made or if the track is universal.

They have opted to go with t-track in the table so you are limited to certain areas to make cuts, also maybe not such a good idea.

The little lifts at the end are interesting but not enough for me to really get excited about. My guess is someone will come up with a MFT version rather quickly unless it is protected.

Such a crowded field of these things now it will be interesting if they can sell enough to stay in it for the long haul. At least they have a pretty complete package and not a bad price so it will depend on how other view the functionality and quality. Keep in mind the entry prices for a Festool saw is $590 and the MFT is $720 and you will have to add a few accessories to get an equivalent functionality to the Kreg. However the quality will more likely not be equal to Festool.

OK so there it is for now. If I find one to actually look at and touch I might be able to do a better take on it.


Ed

---

{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257604 by RFGuy » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:18 am

Can someone who owns Festool equipment tell me what makes them so special? I am neutral here and just want to understand them better. I don't own any Festool equipment, but I have seen and touched them in a store. I have read about them online and watched videos about them, but have not used them first hand (and maybe this is the key to understanding them). Below are my thoughts and impressions. Please correct any misunderstandings that I have.

I think I "get" what the Domino can do. I know it is patented and there have been some attempts to come near to its performance, but clearly the Domino outclasses everything for loose tenon joinery (and will continue to do so until their patent runs out). Right now I am just trying to improve on my M&T skills....having mastered biscuit and dowel joinery already. Maybe someday I can own a Domino.

I have seen and heard some cons for Festool equipment such as price, plastic in some places where metal was expected (lower build quality), quick disconnect cord system being a PIA, MFT table stability, Festool customer support in US.

I have heard that Festool has superb engineering with regard to dust collection at the point of dust generation on every tool. I have no experience here and don't know how much better Festool is versus the competition. I mean if Festool is 20% better at dust collection is it worth 2x the price? Maybe if my lungs are struggling from the last 20 years of woodworking that I have done.

The whole systainer thing I get and it makes sense for packing in and out of jobsites. This would be particularly useful in Europe where parking isn't always close by and you might need to carry a bunch of tools up multiple flights of stairs (less so in the US). If I was a contractor, I would be in love with this, but as a hobbyist I really don't see the point and would rather have easier access to my tool's accessories than hunting through a bunch of grey bins.

Feel free to add to this or correct anything that I have stated. Like I said, I am just hoping to learn more about what makes Festool worth their steep price...
Last edited by RFGuy on Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257608 by WileyCoyote » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:20 am

I was watching a video last night of a guy building a chisel cabinet that was way nicer than anything I would ever build. He used a Festool sliding miter saw for crosscutting the wood to length. Before he cut the wood, and he cut probably 4 or 5 pieces, the saw looked like it was right off the showroom floor. When he was finished with the cuts it still looked brand new. I didn't see a single spec of saw dust anywhere. My Dewalt is ok with dust collection but nothing like that thing. I would say their dust collection is superior to just about any manufacturer and their miter saw is a beast. It's MSRP is $1,475.

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257612 by sehast » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:15 am

RFGuy wrote:Can someone who owns Festool equipment tell me what makes them so special? I am neutral here and just want to understand them better. I don't own any Festool equipment, but I have seen and touched them in a store. I have read about them online and watched videos about them, but have not used them first hand (and maybe this is the key to understanding them). Below are my thoughts and impressions. Please correct any misunderstandings that I have.

I think I "get" what the Domino can do. I know it is patented and there have been some attempts to come near to its performance, but clearly the Domino outclasses everything for loose tenon joinery (and will continue to do so until their patent runs out). Right now I am just trying to improve on my M&T skills....having mastered biscuit and dowel joinery already. Maybe someday I can own a Domino.

I have seen and heard some cons for Festool equipment such as price, plastic in some places where metal was expected (lower build quality), quick disconnect cord system being a PIA, MFT table stability, Festool customer support in US.

I have heard that Festool has superb engineering with regard to dust collection at the point of dust generation on every tool. I have no experience here and don't know how much better Festool is versus the competition. I mean if Festool is 20% better at dust collection is it worth 2x the price? Maybe if my lungs are struggling from the last 20 years of woodworking that I have done.

The whole systainer thing I get and it makes sense for packing in and out of jobsites. This would be particularly useful in Europe where parking isn't always close by and you might need to carry a bunch of tools up multiple flights of stairs (less so in the US). If I was a contractor, I would be in love with this, but as a hobbyist I really don't see the point and would rather have easier access to my tool's accessories than hunting through a bunch of grey bins.

Feel free to add to this or correct anything that I have stated. Like I said, I am just hoping to learn more about what makes Festool worth their steep price...


I have had their Carvex jig saw and 5" random orbital sander for about a year now. They replaced an older Bosch jig saw and sander which I thought were about the best on the market at the time I bought them. The Festool tools are just on another level in terms of performance, ease of use and overall quality. I hate sanding but the Festool sander is almost a pleasure to use and makes quick work of any job I have tried. The Bosch sander left me vibrating almost as much as it did after 15-20 minutes of use. I can now do the same job in about half the time and feel as good as when I started. The jig saw is the same. I can now make quite accurate cuts in plywood with very little effort. Both the ease of use and the quality of the cut handily beat the Bosch. Festool is expensive but you do get what you pay for.

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257614 by RFGuy » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:32 am

sehast wrote:
I have had their Carvex jig saw and 5" random orbital sander for about a year now. They replaced an older Bosch jig saw and sander which I thought were about the best on the market at the time I bought them. The Festool tools are just on another level in terms of performance, ease of use and overall quality. I hate sanding but the Festool sander is almost a pleasure to use and makes quick work of any job I have tried. The Bosch sander left me vibrating almost as much as it did after 15-20 minutes of use. I can now do the same job in about half the time and feel as good as when I started. The jig saw is the same. I can now make quite accurate cuts in plywood with very little effort. Both the ease of use and the quality of the cut handily beat the Bosch. Festool is expensive but you do get what you pay for.

Thanks. Makes sense to me. I too have used a Bosch orbital sander in the past and even though I thought it was built well at the time, I have to agree that the vibration transferred to hand was terrible. I have a newer Porter Cable orbital now and it is way better, but now I have to wonder what the Festool would be like. I have heard Marc (Wood Whisperer) also rave about the Festool for sanding, but he never really gives details of why it is better. Your explanation makes sense and I appreciate it. Definitely something to think about...so I can see how their sanders could be worth it. I have heard mixed reviews on their track saws and it seems like there is a lot of good competition there. Anyone own their track saw and can comment why it is better? Also what about the Kapex?

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257615 by sehast » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:49 am

Here is a pretty comprehensive video on the Kapex. I have a very serviceable Makita 12" sliding miter saw but this one does turn my head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH0GEZGtzFw

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257645 by benush26 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:29 pm

RFGuy wrote:
If I was a contractor,

Feel free to add to this or correct anything that I have stated. Like I said, I am just hoping to learn more about what makes Festool worth their steep price...

First let me say I don’t own any Festool. I’ve used many of their tools, but that is because many of my friends are contractors and that is why I Included that sentence from your post.
The contractors I know have one unpredictable line item in their world and that is time. If they can get a job done with the same results in significantly less time, then they usually make more profit.
What I’ve noticed about Festool is that, for the most part, they deliver excellent results in a short amount of time. Professionals are willing to pay the premium price for exceptional results. A good friend has a small contracting business and uses the Kapex on every job. He has never had to adjust it back to square cuts. He has, however, a weekly routine to readjust/compensate his other miter saws. Time wasted adjusting, but needed to get precise results. His brother and b-I-l have a cabinet shop. They use the track saw and MFT to save time making the carcasses and Rotex and direct drive sanders for perfect finishes in less time than using other similar power tools
There are other name brand good quality tools that can give just as good a result, but most take more time to set up and to adjust each time plus repeated excellent results are not a given, where they are with Festool.
There are other systems that give the same result as the Domino, but usually take more time to accomplish the same result.
For those of us where time to completion is not a factor, we can weigh the cost versus benefit. I have a good friend who is not a contractor but enjoys the precision afforded him using Festool and has the bank account where the cost is not that much a factor. I use INCRA systems because they are very precise. They come at a premium. With time and fussing, the ShopSmith fence width can be as precisely adjusted as the INCRA Wonder fence and the SS miter gauge adjusted to the same tolerance as the INCRA SE 1000. But with the INCRA tools, I can get very precise results in significantly less time.
So, are Festool tools worthy of the significant extra price tag? For the repeatable superior quality they provide, yes. Are they worth that extra, depends upon the desires of the person (product fit and finish, time to complete the project, etc.)

Of course this is strictly my personal bias, but of my contractor friends, they believe the extra paid is paid back many times over. For them that steep price is actually a good investment. And I think thyat is where the crux resides. I have a different payoff and desired return on my tools. Festool doesn’t see me as a target audience. Though I did just get a survey from them. 😳🤔. Maybe they are thinking of lowering their standards or making some entry level tools?? But more likely I was selected because I already bought my ticket for the Woodworking show in Las Vegas in July.👍

Be well,
Ben

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257658 by RFGuy » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:54 am

sehast wrote:Here is a pretty comprehensive video on the Kapex. I have a very serviceable Makita 12" sliding miter saw but this one does turn my head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH0GEZGtzFw

Thanks again for all of your feedback. While watching the Kapex video, one item that popped out at me is the number of plastic buttons and levers on the tool. I already own a compound miter saw, so I am not in the market at this time and haven't researched the competition. At some point in the future I might upgrade to a sliding compound miter like the Kapex. I get concerned when I see so much plastic, particularly for controls like this. I live in PHX and my garage hits 100F or higher in summer here. Water softener resin tanks in garages will fail and rupture in 5-10 years here because of the heat. I know there are many different types of plastic materials. I just hope that Festool has chosen one than won't become brittle and crack due to temps in places like PHX. I have had so many items die prematurely here because of heat either in the garage, attic or outside (UV for this one).

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Re: New Kreg adaptive cutting system

#257660 by RFGuy » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:02 am

benush26 wrote:
RFGuy wrote:
If I was a contractor,

Feel free to add to this or correct anything that I have stated. Like I said, I am just hoping to learn more about what makes Festool worth their steep price...

First let me say I don’t own any Festool. I’ve used many of their tools, but that is because many of my friends are contractors and that is why I Included that sentence from your post.
The contractors I know have one unpredictable line item in their world and that is time. If they can get a job done with the same results in significantly less time, then they usually make more profit.
What I’ve noticed about Festool is that, for the most part, they deliver excellent results in a short amount of time. Professionals are willing to pay the premium price for exceptional results. A good friend has a small contracting business and uses the Kapex on every job. He has never had to adjust it back to square cuts. He has, however, a weekly routine to readjust/compensate his other miter saws. Time wasted adjusting, but needed to get precise results. His brother and b-I-l have a cabinet shop. They use the track saw and MFT to save time making the carcasses and Rotex and direct drive sanders for perfect finishes in less time than using other similar power tools
There are other name brand good quality tools that can give just as good a result, but most take more time to set up and to adjust each time plus repeated excellent results are not a given, where they are with Festool.
There are other systems that give the same result as the Domino, but usually take more time to accomplish the same result.
For those of us where time to completion is not a factor, we can weigh the cost versus benefit. I have a good friend who is not a contractor but enjoys the precision afforded him using Festool and has the bank account where the cost is not that much a factor. I use INCRA systems because they are very precise. They come at a premium. With time and fussing, the ShopSmith fence width can be as precisely adjusted as the INCRA Wonder fence and the SS miter gauge adjusted to the same tolerance as the INCRA SE 1000. But with the INCRA tools, I can get very precise results in significantly less time.
So, are Festool tools worthy of the significant extra price tag? For the repeatable superior quality they provide, yes. Are they worth that extra, depends upon the desires of the person (product fit and finish, time to complete the project, etc.)

Of course this is strictly my personal bias, but of my contractor friends, they believe the extra paid is paid back many times over. For them that steep price is actually a good investment. And I think thyat is where the crux resides. I have a different payoff and desired return on my tools. Festool doesn’t see me as a target audience. Though I did just get a survey from them. 😳🤔. Maybe they are thinking of lowering their standards or making some entry level tools?? But more likely I was selected because I already bought my ticket for the Woodworking show in Las Vegas in July.👍

Be well,
Ben

Ben,

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. I guess I was kind of thinking Festool wasn't adopted as much by contractors here in the States, but I am glad to hear you have friends, in the contracting business, who are using and loving their Festools. Your description makes sense and I wonder what Festool is doing differently on their Kapex that it doesn't need, or requires less calibration than competing miter saws. That is great feedback on why he chose the Kapex.

Yeah, I was contemplating the Incra fence system for my Mark V, but they don't make it anymore.

I have never been to the Vegas WW show, but saw the ad for it recently. Have you been before and recommend it?

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