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18 posts 1 2

Double tilt 10ER?

#245470 by badtheba » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:53 am

I'm wondering if anyone has ever successfully designed a double tilt 10ER. I'm thinking a fully customized bench somewhat like what is pictured below from Popular Mechanics for the Mark V. I think it would be sweet to have an under table router, but if that and maybe the under table drum/spindle sander was all I gained from it it probably wouldn't be worth it. I've been looking but the only things I've found are people devising ways to attach separate routers to the underside of the table. I'd rather use the existing headstock and motor.

PopularMechanicsDoubleFlipSS1.png
PopularMechanicsDoubleFlipSS1.png (655.54 KiB) Viewed 4337 times


Obviously the way tube tie bar attachment to the headrest on the 10ER would be a weak point as it is just hand tightened, so some thought would have to go into it. This would be months down the road on my second 10ER I picked up, as the one I am restoring now has the 4E jointer and headrest so that wouldn't make sense to use that.

I'm trying to think of ways I could use the rest of my donor treadmill (namely the lift system) before I scrap most of it. The one I am scrapping has an AC motor with a shaft out both sides with the gears connected to linear gears on each leg of the treadmill, and high and low limit switches. I think that could be of more use than the worm gear type of treadmill lift.

If the only other option is mounting a router base to the bottom of the table like MickyD did then I'd just get a router table instead. http://www.shopsmith.com/ss_forum/viewtopic.php?t=5194

Maybe I shouldn't be posting at this time of day...

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245477 by dvsmith86 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:19 am

Sounds like a great idea, but...
1. You would need to figure out a way to easily remove the pins from the pivot on the end opposite the base you're tilting on to.
2. You would need to replace the trunnion under the table with something that would be out of the way of the spindle. Tilt the saw table 90°and then turn it around so it faces the tailstock to see this requirement.
3. A router usually runs 12,000 to 25,000 RPM. What is the maximum speed of your spindle driven by the treadmill motor? What is the maximum speed your spindle bearings can withstand?

Personally, my 10E is a dedicated drill press, while my 10ER handles the other functions. A standalone router table is my next project after my shop build is completed.

It sounds like what you're describing for the treadmill lift is a rack and pinion. I believe that would make a great lift / jack for the head on a dedicated drill press.

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-
Doug Smith
10E SN:10290 Dedicated drill press
10ER SN:69488 Lathe, saw, sander, etc.
Retired Machinist & CNC Programmer
Beginner woodworking
Passions: Restoring, repairing, repurposing

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245484 by badtheba » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:48 am

dvsmith86 wrote:Sounds like a great idea, but...
1. You would need to figure out a way to easily remove the pins from the pivot on the end opposite the base you're tilting on to.
2. You would need to replace the trunnion under the table with something that would be out of the way of the spindle. Tilt the saw table 90°and then turn it around so it faces the tailstock to see this requirement.
3. A router usually runs 12,000 to 25,000 RPM. What is the maximum speed of your spindle driven by the treadmill motor? What is the maximum speed your spindle bearings can withstand?

Personally, my 10E is a dedicated drill press, while my 10ER handles the other functions. A standalone router table is my next project after my shop build is completed.

It sounds like what you're describing for the treadmill lift is a rack and pinion. I believe that would make a great lift / jack for the head on a dedicated drill press.


1. I was actually thinking of pivoting the table/bench. I have a large C channel trailer stake I was planning on cutting up for supporting the bench on one or the other of my 10ERs, as the material I have on hand is particle board laminated on top and bottom, and I'm adding lateral support underneath for rigidity.

2. Yeah, the trunnion only goes 45 degrees in that direction, and parts conflict. I see what you mean there. Probably wouldn't be too hard to have a second table setup to drop into the carriage for that mode though, with the trunnion removed and the table clamped right to the support rods. It would probably have to be shimmed for squareness though. Actually, what about joining the trunnion to two separate extension plates made from steel bar stock, to offset its bolt holes and lower the trunnion where it would slip under the quill (viewed in horizontal mode). I'll have to assemble it in reverse to take a look.

3. The quill bearings are rated for 10,000 RPMs, right? My Bosch variable speed router is 8000-25000RPM, so I can see your point there. However, what about shaper cutters that were designed to be used over the table? What is the max speed of the Mark V/VII or other double tilt models that have router chucks made for them?

Yes, rack and pinion. Maybe if I weren't posting at 2am I'd have thought of it! I'll post a couple pics next.

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245485 by badtheba » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 am

According to the Mark 7/V specifications page, the Mark V operates much slower, and the Mark 7 max speed is also 10,000RPMs. So would the main difference for their intended purpose be whether or not the individual bit could safely be operated at 10,000RPM or less?

And with the kit to convert a Mark V into a double tilt, what function would that serve if the RPMs (at only 5,200RPMs) were such a limiting factor? The specs page says only the Mark 7 should be used in under table shaper mode.

https://www.shopsmith.com/mark7site/specs.htm

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245486 by badtheba » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:00 am

Here's what I've got. As is, there is probably a bit over 10" of travel. However, the rack could be substituted for longer, as the limit switches are all that stop the motion by cutting off current at the extremes.

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IMG_20180207_075943486.jpg (185.09 KiB) Viewed 4320 times

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245488 by badtheba » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:19 am

The main reason I thought reusing these treadmill parts would work was to overcome the weight of leaving the pivot base attached. The ER would pivot into drill press mode as normal, then the entire bench would pivot the other way under a controlled manner with the rack and pinion (made to raise and lower a treadmill with a 300lb person on it). The headstock would be near the pivot point, so it's weight wouldn't actually add much to the required leverage.

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245489 by rpd » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:38 am

Your call, but I think the best solution would be to have a pivot base at each end.

Then, as Doug said, you would only need to find a way to easily remove the pivot pins from the appropriate end.

---

Ron Dyck
==================================================================
10ER #23430, 10ER #84609, 10ER #94987,two SS A-34 jigsaws for 10ER.
1959 Mark 5 #356595 Greenie, SS Magna Jointer, SS planer, SS bandsaw, SS scroll saw (gray), DC3300,

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245524 by JPG » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:53 pm

Table gonna work reversed?

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╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E(SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245530 by badtheba » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:28 pm

I flipped it around tonight to check. The trunnion tie bar definitely conflicts, but if I were to extend the bolt up position where the trunnion tie bar pivots bolt to the bottom of the table, there's easy clearance to get the quill directly centered on the table insert without parts touching. The table support rods would just be inserted further than is normally capable with the table perpendicular to the ways.

The only other thing that would bind up would be the table support rod locking knobs, but switching those to the flip levers like Skip sells for the lathe rest would get those out of the way as well.

I'll try to get some bar stock drilled in the right positions from my father in law in the next couple weeks and take some pictures.

In case anyone is wondering why my recent posts are all over the map and not focused on my actual rebuild: 1. My mind wanders late at night, and 2. The weather here is ridiculous for getting any stripping/blasting/painting done on my parts. My father in law's shop where I'd be able to use a blasting cabinet isn't heated. My old boss's shop with the paint booth is full of his projects. So I have nothing better to do than dream up ridiculous ideas while I wait for the stars to align.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

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Re: Double tilt 10ER?

#245943 by badtheba » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:44 pm

Although I'm trying not to let my mind wander too much off my main rebuild project, I sort of have to consider how to proceed with my second 10ER as I'm working on the first one. The main reason I'm splitting time between the two is that I now have numerous options for motors, and am trying to decide what purposes I'm most likely to use each one for if I keep both. I made a spreadsheet listing all the normal purposes, listed by horizontal/vertical mode, and my likelihood of needing those functions, and predicting the frequency of use of each function. Hopefully that will help me decide the primary functions if both machines are used on a regular basis, to prevent having to switch positions all the time. I have scavenged the 2.4HP DC motor from my old treadmill, plus last weekend picked up a 1.5HP Baldor 3450RPM motor off CL for $40. I also have the original 1/2HP GE motor that came on my first 10ER, and an odd, overly large 1/2HP Delco motor that came on the second one. I'd prefer not to use the Delco motor, as it is way too large a diameter (it was actually resting on the bench when I got it, with the speed changer belts installed). It also has a reverse switch installed on it, and looks like someone bashed it on something else hard enough to bend the switch around the nut that holds it in the motor case, so I assume it needs some attention. It also is the only one with a 5/8" keyed shaft on both ends. That motor might go to some other purpose.

The double tilt design still seems like a worthy goal, so I gathered up some parts I had scattered in various storage areas to see if it would be practical to make a rigid, stable bench that would cantilever off one end so a pivot could be placed underneath the headrest end a foot or so in from the end. I would be hesitant to use two pivot bases only because I could fairly easily switch my 4E jointer headrest to this other machine if it were designed using normal dimensions and bolt hole locations. I'm thinking at this point I would like to use the Baldor motor without the speed changer on the double tilt one, and easily achieve 8-10,000RPM for under table shaping/routing with the spare pulleys I already have. I think the critical piece to this design will be this trailer stake I mentioned before. I would like to place 1 1/2" thick material under the headrest and pivot base, but not connected in the middle. I would then use the trailer stake/C channel, bolted underneath the two "bench pieces" to span that gap, but also to create a very strong pivot point on underneath the bench. I also have 4-5 4' lengths of heavy T-bar material I can use to create the lower frame.

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If I did this, I would likely use this second machine as drill press, both over and under shaper/router, and possibly table saw with the 3450RPM motor and potentially much heavier bench. I would then use the first machine I purchased for the lathe, disc sander, bench grinder, and jointer, with the 1/2HP motor and speed changer or variable speed DC conversion. I'm open to suggestions as far as which motor should go where or power what functions. The only bad thing limiting the use of the 3450RPM motor is that its start capacitor is directly opposite the mount plate, so it would have to be moved if that motor were used over a bench (as opposed to wall mount drill press, etc., where what's behind the machine can be easily modified). Something that might allow its use on the double tilt 10ER would be if the bench "halves" under the headrest and pivot base were thick enough to let the capacitor clear whatever support is underneath. I've gotten some ideas about the motor from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEl4ghRIwbs

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