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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261207 by RFGuy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:55 pm

twistsol wrote:High CFM is what pulls in the fine particles. High suction allows you to pick up the larger chips etc. Shop vacs are typically high suction, whereas dust collectors are high CFM. If I had to choose between the two, go with the high CFM since you can go back and get the heavy dust later. The fine and ultra fine dust will migrate everywhere and is what gets into your lungs and can cause health issues.

According to the chart in the following Wood Magazine article, nearly all WW machines require at least 350 CFM.

Yeah, but they are running 4" or larger ports on modern table saws for those recommendations. I am not an air engineer, but I think you will struggle to get that CFM (350) going through a 2 1/4" port on a Shopsmith. If it did, at those air velocities, it would whistle like crazy (over 10,000ft/min air stream). I think that small port is too restrictive for that airflow, but I haven't tried testing it. The relation is FPM=CFM/duct area, but I don't think this holds as an absolute equation, i.e. I think the smaller the port, the more turbulence takes over and raises SP for a high airflow.

You really have to look at the speed of the airstream, NOT the airflow. The reason Wood mag and others talk about 350 CFM (airflow) is because on a 4" port that equates to 4,000ft/min air speed (Bill Pentz recommendation).

P.S. I don't know the answer here, i.e. what the maximum air speed or airflow is into a 2 1/4" port. What I do know is that every fan/blower has a set of design curves (SP versus airflow). Just because you have a 1000CFM rated DC hooked up to a Shopsmith, doesn't mean that the blower is pulling 1000CFM through that 2 1/4" port! Depending on the resistance (SP) connected to the DC, it could be running at much less than 1000CFM (can calculate this if you have the fan curve and know the SP). Any 2 1/4" vacuum hose is very restrictive as is the 2 1/4" dust port on the tool. This is why I think a large DC might be overkill for a Shopsmith (if you are not running duct work). It might be rated for 1000CFM, but only able to move 200CFM through the 2 1/4" opening on the saw guard perhaps...
Last edited by RFGuy on Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261210 by sehast » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:43 pm

In this video Nick does a pretty good job of explaining the basics relative to providing dust collection for the Shopsmith, using the Shopsmith 330 CFM dust collector as an example.

http://www.shopsmithacademy.com/SS_Arch ... ection.htm

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261212 by RFGuy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:49 pm

sehast wrote:In this video Nick does a pretty good job of explaining the basics relative to providing dust collection for the Shopsmith, using the Shopsmith 330 CFM dust collector as an example.

http://www.shopsmithacademy.com/SS_Arch ... ection.htm

Yeah, this is a great video and he does an excellent job discussing how to size a duct system to the DC3300 (too bad the video resolution/quality isn't better). If you have a DC3300 and it is working perfectly and not leaking any dust outside of the hood, then this isn't a bad way to go. I just wish the tall filter hood was a better filter (for fine dust particles), but it is not which is what got me going down the path of considering a hacked up HF DC or the Shopvac system I have now. I was really close to taking the 3 port manifold off the front of my DC3300 (to get max airflow) and attaching a short length of 4" PVC duct to it for hooking up a few tools in my shop . I was debating if I could get away with this or not, because Nick recommended 3" ducts in the video, I believe.

I even considered retrofitting a Wynn style HEPA filter to the DC3300...to replace the filter hood. The problem that I had is I was seeing the air cut down way more on the DC3300 with a cyclone in front of it than my Shopvac solution with it. Hence the Shopvac won out.

From the video and the Shopsmith Academy, I always found the "octopus" thingie ingenious, but also hilarious at the same time. Shopsmith should have kept with the 4" PVC 90 degree elbow (Shopsmith part #300003) that they used to sell. Just take the 3 2-1/4" port manifold off already and let the blower breathe into the ductwork, but alas that won't work unfortunately. I believe Shopsmith dropped the 4" 90 elbow because unless you had a very short duct hooked up to it, you would lower the air speed too much at 4" aperture that dust would start settling out (see old thread below for discussion on it) and clog the ductwork.
http://shopsmith.com/ss_forum/general-woodworking-f5/dust-collector-4-inlet-assembly-t859.html

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261214 by RFGuy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:47 pm

Just a general comment...remember the OP on this thread has only a 105 sq ft shop. If he can't mount the DC outside and duct into his shop, then the DC has to be inside his shop. If anyone else has a 100 sq ft or smaller shop and has a good DC solution, please let us know how you do it. I don't easily see how he will fit his Mark V, bandsaw, scroll saw, workbench?, jointer with a little bit of storage and woodworking hand tools, etc. WITH a big DC in there. I mean short of sitting on top of the DC while woodturning on the Mark V, what can be done here? He might also want a power stand to put the bandsaw on to dedicate it for cutting blanks for his woodturning, which will take up floor space, too. I mean I know you CAN physically fit all this stuff into that footprint, but IS he going to be happy working in a shop with this many tools on top of each other, not to mention the significant noise of a DC humming maybe 3 feet from his head??? Space is a premium for him, so a full blown (pun intended) DC might not be a good fit for his application and needs.

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261215 by dusty » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:24 pm

It is not clear to me that the OP has a stand alone jointer. He does, however, state that the bandsaw and scroll saw are Shopsmith attachments. He also clearly states that his major projects are to be turnings.

Therefore, I conclude that what he really needs as a bare minimum is floor space enough for the DC and the Mark V. The scroll saw and bandsaw can then be mounted (hung) high on the wall when not needed (reducing the demand for floor space). With this done, he could be ready to make saw dust and to let the chips fly.

Do wear a mask!!!

---

"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261218 by thunderbirdbat » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:57 pm

One of the things that I am not sure was mentioned, is that dust/chip collection while turning is not very efficient no matter what you use. While dust collection while sanding can be done, most of the chips/shavings while turning fly towards you making them hard to collect. It is easier to use a broom and dust pan when you finish turning. I always use a half-face respirator mask no matter what I am doing. I also use a shop vac with a cyclone for everything except turning. For air filtration I use a Wen air filtration unit. https://smile.amazon.com/WEN-3410-3-Speed-Remote-Controlled-Filtration/dp/B00LPD9BDI/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=wen+air+filter&qid=1563477892&s=gateway&sr=8-3 It has the same specs as the Rikon unit only with a different paint job for almost half the cost.

---

Brenda

1998 510 upgraded to a 520, upgraded to power pro with double tilt and lift assist.
1998 bandsaw
2016 beltsander
jointer
overarm pin router

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261219 by twistsol » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:41 pm

For only a few dollars more than the HF dust collector, Rockler has a small wall mounted one.

https://www.rockler.com/dust-right-reg- ... or-650-cfm

I had one of these for a number of years and it works well. I added the canister filter to it after a few years which cost slightly more than the DC. itself.

---

Thanks much,

Chris Phelps

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261227 by bainin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:07 am

I didn't read it all-so forgive if it has already been said.
Last line of defense is a good dustmask or respirator.

I think I have #3 on the list..fairly comfortable.

https://www.edcmag.com/best-dust-masks-for-woodworking/


b

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261243 by RFGuy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:25 pm

djscruggs wrote:You suggested putting the dust collector outside of the shop. I have a cinderblock wall that separates my workshop area from an unfinished, dirtfloored crawlspace under my living room, which is the front of my house.

I have a 1 foot hole in the wall about 5 feet up from the floor of my workshop that I could run a vent hose through. Would it be adequate to just use that hole 5 feet up as the suction vent? If I run a hose all the way down to the floor, that would make it a 10 - 12 foot distance to travel from floor up to the wall opening and back down to the dust collector on the other side. Since we're talking about dust, not wood chips, would that venting solution, 5 feet up, be adequate?


Sorry, I must have missed this post about the crawlspace. How big is the crawlspace and do you have easy access to it? If it could fit a dust collector with cyclone that would really be best. You need easy access to it for emptying the dust bin and cleaning the filter (unless you vent outside without filter). You would probably want to shop for at least a 1000CFM dust collector to account for the duct loss and length that you mention.

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Re: Dust Collection needs - new shop setup

#261244 by RFGuy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:36 pm

Some good suggestions. A couple of you pointed out that if he is mostly woodturning that dust collection is not 100%. I am an inexperienced woodturner myself (just starting out in it), so I appreciate the feedback on this for the OP. I hear good things about the Sundstrom PAPR (powered air purifying respirator), but it is expensive. The 3M competing product isn't much cheaper though. If he is spending most of his time turning, then perhaps an air cleaner and a PAPR are a better investment starting out? Just a thought.

http://ashleyharwood.com/item/sundstrom-papr-respirator

https://www.srsafety.com/us/products/papr-2551.html

The Rockler DustRite wall mount DC is a good suggestion and might help if he has high ceilings and can mount it up out of the way. Only problem that I see is that as you suggest you really need a HEPA cartridge filter on it to capture more of the fine dust particles. You really need to also put a cyclone in front of it...otherwise the HEPA filter will clog pretty fast. If you mount the DustRite blower on the wall, will he still have room to mount the cyclone and tuck it up out of the way?

Thanks for the suggestion on WEN. I have been seeing more tools from WEN recently. That is an amazing price on an air cleaner for woodworking.

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