When The Whole Is Less Than The Sum Of The Parts

[algale]

Morning ramblings. The usual saying is that the Whole is Greater than the Sum of its Parts. Is the opposite true of Shopsmiths: Is the Whole Less Than The Sum of the Parts?

Let me explain: Over the last couple of month I've been looking to buy a certain used part (510/520 5/8ths saw blade arbor) on a well known internet auction site. Of course I browse the other goodies as well. After watching patterns of sales for several months, I am amazed at how well used Shopsmith parts sell.

It seems like the majority of used Shopsmith parts actually do sell if they are in half-decent condition -- which I think is unusual in and of itself since on this auction site many non-Shopsmith items go unsold and get listed and re-listed many, many times. But the overwhelming majority of Shopsmith parts seem to sell.

In addition, many used Shopsmith parts sell for at or near (and as others have observed) sometimes above the retail price of a brand new part direct from the company itself. Seems kind of crazy, eh?

At the same time, whole machines seem to go unsold more often than any individual Shopsmith part and, when they do sell, whole machines sell for a tiny fraction of the retail price of a new machine almost regardless of condition (which probably explains why there are so many more parts for sale than whole machines on that site).

In sum, is a very strange economic market where machines depreciate very rapidly but their constituent parts do not appreciably depreciate (try saying that 10 times fast!) despite the fact that there is a large supply of both new and used parts to choose from. Meanwhile very few people are buying whole machines used (or new, judging by the company's financial problems over the last several years).

I'm not sure what explains all of this. Any economists out there care to try to explain it?

[robinson46176]

Back about 1973 I was a factory rep for the Hoover Co. calling on retail stores in 13 counties in east and southeast Indiana. I worked out of a district office in Indy and there was a district parts and service department there. On a challenge the department manager sat down and added up the prices of all of the parts in a base model upright vacuum cleaner. That model at that time was wholesaling for about $46 in a 24 or more quantity. I forget the exact number but the total was well over $600 to buy it as parts. I suspect that is what you might find with about any product.

A fellow I was buying some SS parts from was buying every SS he could buy at all reasonably and reselling them on Ebay as parts. We chatted a number of times and his comment was that it was a "VERY" profitable sideline for him. Someone I dealt with (and I believe it was him IIRC) told of one guy that was buying a new SS now and then to strip down when he couldn't find used ones. Supposedly he was able to part a new one out and make money on it... I think that was around 2006.

I suspect that SS's (and a lot of other companies) recent tough times also contributes to this situation since they were unable for a time to ship many parts on a timely basis so folks shifted to buying parts off of Ebay where you could be pretty sure of getting your parts in just a week or so...


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[dusty]

We all need parts from time to time. Couple that with the resurgence of used Shopsmiths back into the work area (I believe the members on this forum have a lot to do with that) and I believe you have the answer to why parts sell.

Machines on the other hand, as you have noted, don't sell as well and when they do sell they do not bring their value. In my opinion, the only reason is that there are shipping costs and a fear of damage when a unit is shipped poorly packaged.

There have been several opportunities when I could have bought something but did not bid because of those concerns. On smaller items, I have been very satisfied with what I received and the cost.

Now why anyone pays exorbitant prices for used/questionable items (as they often do) I'll never know and will not venture a guess.

What I also do not know is why there is never a bidding frenzy for the items I sell there.

[robinson46176]

When I started buying up complete SS's it was mostly to part them out and I did sell some stuff like excess SPTs but I got hooked on all of the things I can do with SS parts, like the double drillpress and a couple of other things I am working on. I now hate to sell anything for fear of needing it later.
I do expect to sell a bunch of parts yet but not until I get a little farther along on the shop.
I got around the fear of shipping damage on complete SS's by picking all of them up in person. Missouri, Massachusetts, North Carolina etc. etc.
It would probably be a bit of a stretch to claim that I saved on shipping.
Still, we had a ball doing it. It included a lot of little side trips and visits.


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[heathicus]

What I also do not know is why there is never a bidding frenzy for the items I sell there.

I know the feeling! I recently bought a used 510 with the goal of parting it out on eBay and expanding my workshop budget. I did clear a couple hundred $ in the end, but considering all the time and effort of breaking the machine down, cleaning up parts, listing them on the auction site, packing, shipping, dealing with lousy buyers... I wouldn't necessarily say it was a very profitable endeavor. eBay and the USPS made a lot more money off of it than I did. Although I made a profit overall, there were some individual items that ended up being a loss because I under-estimated shipping.

The only parts that seemed to do really well for me were the items that were still new in the box. I got "over retail" on a couple of those items. Most everything else I listed seemed to go for below average auction prices. I listed the empty headstock casting once for $.99 plus shipping and it didn't sell. I didn't relist it. I didn't even list the tubes or legs, or end castings as I had plans for those parts and they are hard to sell.

I think eBay is a great place to sell parts. But it's not the ideal place to sell whole machines. As Dusty said, with shipping prices and uncertain condition, it's just not a wise purchase. So, as a seller, your potential buyers are limited to people within driving distance who want a whole machine. Not a very large market. The smaller parts, on the other hand, have a much larger market. People who have machines and want extra parts or need repair parts; people refurbishing older machines or needing parts for a machine they just bought off Craig's List or had given to them. Now, why they sell for more than new from Shopsmith directly is anybody's guess.

What surprises me is that Shopsmith, Inc. hasn't opened an eBay store for selling parts. Obviously, people are going there looking for parts. And they're willing to pay "retail" price for used parts. That just seems too good an opportunity for Shopsmith, Inc. to pass up.

[algale]

Machines on the other hand, as you have noted, don't sell as well and when they do sell they do not bring their value. In my opinion, the only reason is that there are shipping costs and a fear of damage when a unit is shipped poorly packaged.

Ah, but even on Craigslist whole Shopsmiths generally go far below the cost of new Since it is largely a local thing you don't have the issue of shipping or condition fears. Somebody here was offering a 510 with many accessories including the bandsaw for $100 bucks a couple of weeks ago. I missed it.

[robinson46176]

What surprises me is that Shopsmith, Inc. hasn't opened an eBay store for selling parts. Obviously, people are going there looking for parts. And they're willing to pay "retail" price for used parts. That just seems too good an opportunity for Shopsmith, Inc. to pass up.

About a couple of years ago or so I bought some router bits at auction from Shopsmith on Ebay. I forget how much I paid but they took a bath on them. Now an Ebay store as you mention might do better used just as a point of presentation with specific prices.
I believe that folks were suspicious of the identity thinking that it was not real.


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[JPG]

1) There are a lot of used machines out there.

2) For a few years, there was no ShopSmith.

3) Those who purchased prior to Magna American's demise were under the impression that parts were not available(true until SSI).

4) So as those vintage machines required parts ebay was emerging.

5) Those owners of older machines typically were not aware of shopsmith's resurrection.

6) Eventually they learned of e-bay.

7) Gradually many of those older owners either passed or were encouraged to discontinue woodworking.

8) Their former equipment ended up getting sold.

9) Some of those machines ended up in the hands of younger folks who are more computer savvy than knowledgeable re manufacturers.

10) So the young turks turn to e-bay for parts.

11) A few wise old birds(older more observant type) notice this and scour the estate auctions etc, and part them out on e-bay.

12) The YT have no knowledge of any 'going new price' so they bid until they get what they need.


I found myself in the ignorant of SSI condition for a couple of decades. When the retail store in the Florence(KY) Mall closed(actually probably SSI then, but not realized by me) I thought the end would occur when something broke.

Well that day came when the keyway on the control sheave got so worn that the ribs moved to the next opening when near fast and jammed when slowed down. It also had a nasty habit of increasing speed on its own.

As a lark I typed 'shopsmith' on the web and the rest is history.


As far as selling., Presentation, Presentation, Presentation!

Ask yourself, if you were interested in buying an item, what do you consider necessary to make a buy decision.

Many pix at a minimum that clearly show areas that a potential buyer would want to 'see' before buying. Clear description of item including honest condition and any defects(big or small). Needless to say an out of focus phone camera pix will not do!

Cut the BS and just describe it!

As far as shipping take a trip with item and all packing stuff and get it weighed so e-bay can calculate shipping(a couple $ on larger items for handling is not unreasonable). Smaller items Parcel Post is likely to be the least $$.

Not much experience myself(Sell my babies!:eek:), but that is the way I see it. That which I did sell went at a reasonable price. I think the 'presentation' helped!

[charlese]

Morning ramblings.
In addition, many used Shopsmith parts sell for at or near (and as others have observed) sometimes above the retail price of a brand new part direct from the company itself. Seems kind of crazy, eh?

At the same time, whole machines seem to go unsold more often than any individual Shopsmith part and, when they do sell, whole machines sell for a tiny fraction of the retail price of a new machine

Same scenario is true for automobiles, bicycles, sewing machines, airplanes, etc. Not a unique situation for shopsmith machines.

There is a larger risk of getting a broken unit when buying a whole thing, and needed repair is not known. However, when buying only a part, the risk is a lot smaller, cost wise, and the needed purpose of the part is can be quite valuable. Needed to repair an otherwise valuable working unit.

[JPG]

Same scenario is true for automobiles, bicycles, sewing machines, airplanes, etc. Not a unique situation for shopsmith machines.

There is a larger risk of getting a broken unit when buying a whole thing, and needed repair is not known. However, when buying only a part, the risk is a lot smaller, cost wise, and the needed purpose of the part is can be quite valuable. Needed to repair an otherwise valuable working unit.

Question is, why do used parts sell higher than new ones from ss?

I gotta assume 'lack knowledge of SSI's existence'.