Looking for advice, horizontal boring, edge joining with dowels and glue

[woodhead52]

Okay,I understand what I'm reading. Butting and tying the tables together to gain rigidity. I have a 510 that was converted to a 520 and I have everything I need to do this.
I also understand about laying the boards top down for drilling.
Also thanks for the clamp links. I'm aware of them and I will look into them. In the meantime, what I have now is bar clamps and pipe clamps. How can I make these work?

Thank you all! This is very helpful information.

Regards,
Pete

[edma194]

Okay,I understand what I'm reading. Butting and tying the tables together to gain rigidity. I have a 510 that was converted to a 520 and I have everything I need to do this.
I also understand about laying the boards top down for drilling.
Also thanks for the clamp links. I'm aware of them and I will look into them. In the meantime, what I have now is bar clamps and pipe clamps. How can I make these work?

Thank you all! This is very helpful information.

Regards,
Pete

When joining long pieces pipe clamps on long pipes are useful to hold boards end to end. Use your bar clamps to hold the stock down on the table. I did some doweling way back on my old Greenie. I had a piece of heavy plywood I would clamp down across the main table and the extension. I screwed a straight board down on it to make a lengthwise fence to align boards end to end for joining. I could then use clamps to hold the boards down on the table, against the fence, and the press them together end to end with the pipe clamp. Pipe clamps have short jaws so I could only use bar clamps with thin flat bars angled over to fit under the pipe clamps. You can make extension shoes for the pipe clamps but I never did that. I keep my clamp jaws wrapped in tape to keep them from damaging wood and use additional padding when needed. Remember, you can't be too rich or have too many clamps.

[RFGuy]

I agree with Alan and Ed that joinery is not necessary for edge joining boards, particularly for a table top, etc. However, in practice I find it helps with vertical alignment, i.e. so that you get a flat table top with minimal sanding required. Rarely have I ever had boards that came out perfectly flat (after planing and jointing) with no bowing or twisting that could impact edge to edge glue up. I find that some means of vertical alignment, e.g. dowels, dominos, etc. helps greatly on alignment for my glue-ups and tends to result in a more perfectly flat panel afterwards. Perhaps if I had all kiln dried stock with a sufficiently wide & long enough jointer and wide enough planer then I could do a glue up with no joinery for a table top, but I have never been so fortunate. Also, I have to agree with David in that I don't think going the route of horizontal boring with a Mark V is going to be easy to get bulletproof alignment for dowel joinery on a panel glue-up like this. For those who deem this easy on a Mark V, perhaps you can give all of your best tips to the OP on this thread because I wouldn't even attempt this myself given some of the caveats with horizontal boring on a Mark V.

[edflorence]

In the meantime, what I have now is bar clamps and pipe clamps. How can I make these work?

Pete:

Here is a photo clipped from a Fine Woodworking article on clamping. In the picture you can see that the cauls span the boards that are being edge joined and downward pressure on the cauls is being applied with the small clamps. The pipe clamps are putting the squeezing pressure on the joints. A couple of things to note: The inner faces of the cauls are covered with strapping tape or wax paper to prevent them from sticking to the glue, and some people recommend that the cauls be gently curved on their inner faces such that the center of the caul is about 1/4 inch or maybe 3/8 inch thicker than at the ends. That little bit of curve ensures good pressure along the full length of the caul.

caul picture.jpg (28.36 KiB) Viewed 10681 times

[edflorence]

For those who deem this easy on a Mark V, perhaps you can give all of your best tips to the OP on this thread because I wouldn't even attempt this myself given some of the caveats with horizontal boring on a Mark V.

Well, I don't claim to have done a lot of doweling on the Mark V, but over the years I have done some. About a year ago I had to edge join some picnic table legs that were angled on the inner faces, and the glue-up required temporary clamping "ears" for the clamps to press against. Since the glue-up was going to be a little tricky, I decided to use dowels to make sure the pieces were aligned and did not slide around when I clamped them. With my 500 in horizontal drilling mode I clamped a board to the main table at the correct angle and drilled for the dowels.

picnic table legs drilling.jpg (170.63 KiB) Viewed 10676 times

picnic table legs.jpg (178.78 KiB) Viewed 10676 times

The legs are redwood, so the drilling was easy and the clamped board provided enough resistance against the quill to keep the table from flexing. In the case of a harder to drill wood I have had to do things like clamp the main table to the auxiliary table and/or use the fence backed up with boards clamped at right angles to the fence to counter the deflecting forces. Even so, it is still necessary to drill with minimal pressure on the quill, withdraw the bit frequently and take small "bites" to avoid moving the table.

[RFGuy]

Ed,

Thanks. What you show for picnic table legs looks like it can be more easily controlled than what I had in mind from this thread. I am thinking of large panels, e.g. a dining table that might have 40+ individual dowel joints to join many boards. Long, skinny boards get "wonky" on glue ups, so for me I prefer some type of joinery. For me to make 40 individual dowel joints (80 counting drilling both sides), it is very repetitive and one small mistake will lead to a problematic glue-up. Whereas using my Domino, it is easier to bring the tool to the clamped board to make 80 nearly perfect mortises (horizontal can have some slop on Domino wider setting - by design to aid glue up). As long as I register the Domino fence squarely on top of the board top surface every time, I will have a near perfectly flat table top afterwards. While I know Shopsmith experts can achieve similar level of results with horizontal boring on a Mark V, it does take more skill and luck IMHO to achieve it with a long board and many repetitive bore sites for a large table top.

[woodhead52]

I very much appreciate everyone's input and advice. I've carefully read your posts and and I've re-read the section on Horizontal Boring in Power Tool Woodworking for Everyone. All of it is helpful and helps me to set my expectations in the right place. I plan to follow up with my results and experiences with some pictures, thoughts and conclusions so that you can offer critiques and advice. All of this will be happening amidst other things so it may be several days or even a few weeks before I post my results.

If you or anyone else should wish to share any other thoughts, pictures, etc. on this, let them fly.
Thanks again.

Regards,
Pete

[RFGuy]

I very much appreciate everyone's input and advice. I've carefully read your posts and and I've re-read the section on Horizontal Boring in Power Tool Woodworking for Everyone. All of it is helpful and helps me to set my expectations in the right place. I plan to follow up with my results and experiences with some pictures, thoughts and conclusions so that you can offer critiques and advice. All of this will be happening amidst other things so it may be several days or even a few weeks before I post my results.

If you or anyone else should wish to share any other thoughts, pictures, etc. on this, let them fly.
Thanks again.

Regards,
Pete

Pete,

Please understand that any Shopsmith owner that sets their mind to it can accomplish anything. The horizontal boring feature is a great feature and many here on the forum use it often and love it. I merely wanted to caution you on attempting so many dowel placements in a large panel like that. It can be done, but accurate placement of every dowel hole is critical to both achieve a flush top and an easy glue up. Some mentioned that joinery (e.g. dowels) aren't needed for edge to edge glue-up. They mentioned this because the chemical bond of the glue is stronger than the lignin holding wood fibers together - in other words a good glue joint is stronger than the rest of the board itself (assuming a good quality wood glue like Titebond brand). This works best for straight and true lumber, which isn't always so easy to procure or mill. For a handful of dowel joints, in my experience, I find that the horizontal boring is acceptable and works well. However, I continue to have issues with my 520 fence slipping (during horizontal boring) and I am not willing to tighten it more than the level that I have it at now. Some here suggest using auxiliary clamps to hold the 520 fence in place on the table for this operation. Dowel centers are a must as are brad point drill bits. Doing around 80 of these for example on a large panel is not something I would choose to do and I will explain why:

I recommend joinery, even for panels because I often find a 6' length board will not be perfectly flat or non-twisted. So, I am usually correcting a bit of cup or twist when I assemble a panel. It is helpful to alternate end grain so that the panel will tend to self correct with time, i.e. so you don't end up with a potato chip one day instead of a flat panel. When I mention vertical alignment I am referring to two boards side-by-side, edge glued where you want the top to be perfectly flush. You assume the boards are exactly equal thickness but in reality there can be some difference, albeit small. You want to run your hand across the seam on the top of the panel and feel nothing but one continuous surface. So, the desire is to have vertical alignment between the two boards such that the top surface is the reference to achieve a flush surface. Note that biscuit joinery gives you this with vertical alignment, but they don't give you any horizontal alignment, so the board ends could be askew relative to each other. For panels you don't have to have horizontal alignment from the joinery, but must make sure you achieve this on glue-up or you will need to trim both ends of the panel instead of simply sanding them. Dowel joinery isn't very forgiving because they provide both vertical and horizontal alignment - in other words their placement needs to be precise. Consequently any error in placement will either result in a panel that won't assemble or result in a top surface that isn't flush. Loose tenon joinery, such as the Domino, can give both vertical and horizontal alignment. Not trying to talk you into the Festool Domino, but just pointing out where it excels. On a large panel like a table top, you can mortise the first mortise on one end of the board with the tight setting. Then the rest of the mortises down that board can be done on one of the 2 optional loose settings that they offer. This results in a mortise that has more side to side play but keeps the same mortise height in the vertical dimension. As a result, the one Domino on the panel ends (one in each board to board connection) sets the horizontal reference so that all of the boards will be flush on the end, while the interior dominoes will maintain the vertical alignment only. This makes panel assembly easy and quick which is helpful considering the glue sets quickly during assembly of a panel. Without this feature, making all of the domino mortises tight fitting would have the same problem as dowel joinery and require absolute precision of every mortise or the panel would not assemble, i.e. holes in the wrong places.

Not trying to talk you into new tools and especially not trying to talk you into the Festool Domino because it costs a small fortune. I love my Festool Domino though. For me, I figured out where my Shopsmith excelled and where I would rather spend my time/enjoyment on other tools. IF you are set on doing dowel joinery on a large panel, I would recommend a dowel joinery jig such as Jessem's or any other good name brand. Doing approximately 80 dowel holes and mating them all on a large panel can be done with a Mark V, but it isn't going to be easy or fast. I think you will get better alignment and better results doing that with a dowel joinery jig IMHO. For smaller projects, fewer horizontal borings like what Ed showed, the Mark V is fantastic for this. Just my opinion and there may be others on the forum who disagree with this. Taking the Shopsmith out of the discussion, I think the real question becomes do you need/want joinery in your large panel that you started discussing on this thread? IF so, you may be better off with other joinery methods. The Festool Domino is fantastic, but expensive. Biscuit joiners are more accessible and give only vertical alignment, but that is all you really need for a panel provided you take care on assembly to keep the ends flush and square. For small panels, such as a cutting board, you may want to forgo joinery altogether and/or give it a go with horizontal boring and dowel joinery on the Mark V. JMO.

P.S. I know a picture would really help with this, so below is a pic illustrating the 3 different width settings of the Festool Domino. The one on the left is the standard (tight setting) and what I would use on one end of a panel. Then subsequent mortises down the length of the board would be done on the 2nd setting (loose setting). In such a way, the 1st (tight) Domino sets the vertical and horizontal alignment between the two boards and each subsequent loose Domino down the length of the board holds that vertical alignment to give a flush top surface to the panel. This gives some small horizontal play of each loose Domino so that a panel can be easily assembled at glue up. Unfortunately you can't do something similar with dowel joinery. Biscuits give a little bit of horizontal slop and make assembly of panels easier, though not all biscuit machines are equal in quality...

DominoSettings.jpg (145.25 KiB) Viewed 9753 times

[nuhobby]

This entire thread is highly informative.

I will just mention that my first Shopsmith WW project in 2007 used horizontal boring and dowels to help glue up a wide desktop I made. It is still perfect and gap-free 15 years later. I do remember running a handplane over the finished joints, before sanding and finishing.

[RFGuy]

This entire thread is highly informative.

I will just mention that my first Shopsmith WW project in 2007 used horizontal boring and dowels to help glue up a wide desktop I made. It is still perfect and gap-free 15 years later. I do remember running a handplane over the finished joints, before sanding and finishing.

Thanks and you probably had better luck with assembly on yours than mine! My dining table is similar. Did it on my Dad's 510 back when I was in college, so 3 decades later it is holding up well. It has been a long time, but I remember having issues with alignment of each dowel on that early project. I am sure some I probably overdrilled to fix any dowel hole errors, but then it isn't an effective joint. After this, I entered a period where I did biscuit joints on panels for a long time before switching to the Domino more recently. Would love to hear of experiences from others with horizontal boring for large panels, or any other joinery method you want to mention here. Also, if anyone has had great luck with large panels without joinery, it would be useful to hear of those experiences as well. I haven't honed my hand tool skills enough, but of course with thick enough stock to begin with, one could easily butt joint (no joinery) and hand plane out any imperfections in the top surface. Having started on power tools, I prefer to get stock planed to thickness and make sure the top of every board is referenced for all joinery so that the top surface comes out nearly seamless with minimal sanding required afterward.