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11 posts 1 2

Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250116 by reible » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:59 pm

I've been wanting to make a vertical workstation for my Shaper for a while now. After many variations drawn up in sketch-up I think I had what I wanted.

What has kept me from doing it? Well the design has stacked boards with 20mm holes on 96mm spacing and I'm thinking of making them one at a time with the Shaper. In the old days I would be thinking of drilling both of them at the same time and while that pretty much assures things working that is now old school.

So what are my chances of getting these two parts accurate enough that the parf dogs fit in all the locations?

These are the parts:

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They go together like this:

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Stay tuned, this and other information to follow later this evening.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250119 by reible » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:12 am

If I hadn't been there and done it myself I would not have believed it. Yes all 15 holes line up well enough to insert the dogs through both pieces! A few are pretty tight but that is OK, time will tell if this still works as the weather changes with both heat and humidity but for now it is clearly a success.

I still have the final assembly to do and that will include things like some pocket holes to attach the top to the lower parts, screws for the t-track, a check for square and some light sanding. I still have not made the spoil board, that is a table saw project.

So let's take a look at the dry fit station.

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I plan to use this on my MFT and it will have the ability to clamp to that. In this picture is is just sitting on the work surface but with the aid of some clamps it can be used a lot of places even the aux. shopsmith table I built not long ago with the MFT look.

The function this adds to the SO is the ability to work on the end or edge of a board rather then just the face. You should be able to do things like mortise a table leg or the likes.

Here with it tipped up you can see the t-track and dog holes that can be used for positioning and clamping.

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I really like that the t-track allows the use of the festool clamps and the use of 1/4" clamping hardware. This gives me a lot of options.

I'll add some build details that you might find interesting at another time. Been a really busy day and I need some rest.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250131 by reible » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:36 pm

Air Quality Alert Day so might as well catch up on a few things indoors today.

I thought it might be interesting for some of you to talk a bit about the construction of this unit even if you never have the need for one.

CNC type woodworking is a bit of different game then traditional woodworking. Of course this leads to all sorts of hybrid results. Some users of CNC go to great lengths to avoid using conventional tools, while others combine things to come up with unique solutions. The SO falls in the category of being CNC like but also lends it self to being able to use the best of both worlds.

This leads us to one of the cases where when you want to add a squared part to a squared cut out. If you drill and chisel you normal would square up the corners where the bit leaves the rounded corner, like wise if cut with a router the rounded corner is cleaned up again. And yes you have the option of rounding the part that fits into the hole. CNC people often approach this with the use of a "dog bone". This allows the CNC machine to cut the opening with the corners relieved so a square part will fit and no hand operations are needed.

What I wanted to look into in this build was the use of a small bit to cut the dog bone. A typical dog bone might use a 1/4" bit and the result depending on other factors leaves a good size dog bone. Here is the results of that attempt:

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It was time consuming to draw and time consuming to cut but the result was pretty much what I hoped it would be. With the SO you can get to the corner and then use the auto feature to make the cut without moving the machine. So in this case I cut the dog bones as a separated operation, get to the corner then making the cut then moving to the next one in a patter such that I did all the dog bones at one depth then came back for another pass and so on until they were full depth.

Here is a shot of the joint when assembled:

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A few other things coming yet today on the project.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250134 by reible » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:52 pm

The SO is not intended to replace all the tools in the shop. Finding a happy medium of when it best to use this or that tool is always a personal thing and for me I like many ways to do the same task, it makes my life more interesting.

This was my first SO project where I went to the work piece with no lines or measurements on the work piece. Got to learn to trust that it will work out. This of course saves time not having to mark up the part before you make it. I'll come back this in a moment.

So for this project there were parts that were best done with the SO and then a follow on operation with a guided saw. Yes there will be some sanding done but mostly I wanted to get the parts cut out and dry fit for this stage of the build. Sure you could cut the whole thing with the SO but that is not a good use of your time or tools. We will come back to this too.

SO uses computer vision to decide where it is and where the tool paths are. To do this they have a tape which is placed down then scanned. Next you can establish a grid and to do that you do two x and one y location probe. Then you can load the part in and locate it on the grid. Once placed you can move on to the cutting portion of the job but.... You have to have enough tape down and in the locations that allow the SO to know where it is. They have a built in tape indicator that give you an indication of the machine can see on a on going basis. If you get in to locations and the red indicator is on things are not going to go well for your cuts. Or if the tape moves, or there is no tape where it needs to be and well other situations. So you can do an "air" cut which shows you the path and you move along like your cutting but the bit is not cutting the material it is out of the action. While you do the path you watch and see if there will be tape problems and if there is you can add tape then add that in to the scan. This makes sure that things are going to work.

While this might seem time consuming it isn't really that bad as you can move a lot fast not cutting then cutting. You don't of course always have to do this but sometimes it makes sense to make sure you don't have clamps or other things where you need to move the machine.

I've added a new wrinkle to this. They have bits that are used for engraving that is a "V" and I though that could serve two purposes, one would be the air cut test and the second provide a line to use with the guided saw to reference.

Here is an example of what I did:

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Notice that I did not cut the tape. If you don't have a full tape it can not be read for information.

This also helps you decide where the SO cuts will be made and where the saw would be the better option.

As you can see here the portion that was best routed was done leaving the lines for the saw to cut.

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So I hope this was a helpful view of how all this comes together for those that are interested.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250143 by BuckeyeDennis » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:06 pm

Ed, I’m curious about how the SO affects your productivity. 1) Assuming that you were fully up the learning curve, how long do you estimate this project would take with the SO, and how long with conventional tools? 2) How many hours would you say you will have invested in the SO learning curve?

I started learning Fusion 360 a few weeks ago, and I’m mostly up to speed on it now. So that piece of the puzzle is no longer a problem for me.

In very round numbers, how does the price of the SO compare to a flat-bed CNC large enough to do this project?

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250148 by reible » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:39 pm

I have to say I am not even close to knowing enough about the SO at this point. I'm trying to do a few projects with it and trying a few new things with each project. It is not that it is hard to learn it just that it is a very different way of doing things. This last project was the first where I went from Sketch-up to cutting with the SO. This has the potential of saving time in that one doesn't have to lay the project out on the work piece. It also means that you don't have to dimension your drawings to print out a work sheet to use in the layout.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the software will continue to be upgraded with more and better features so like the first 20mm hole project I had to move the SO around at a depth then change that setting and go around again and repeat until the hole was through. On 3/4" material that is 3 passes. The upgrade that gives you spiral cutting you simply set the full depth, center on the hole and push the button and the SO does the rest. More accurate and faster then I could do it on a drill press. On this same line I was using a 1/2" bit and the default plunge speed, it work fine in the MDF.... on the plywood it was way to fast and the first hole was a struggle to keep the machine from moving around, an upgrade allow you to adjust that speed so on the second hole I slowed the plunge rate down and it work a lot better. Of course it takes longer but worth the time.

I have a list of projects of things I want to try. You can do engraving and that is one of the things that is near the top of my list. In fact it might will be my next project. Might have to invest in some new bits for that depending on how impressed I might be with how things work.

I didn't really time the project. I would say that it is nearly even between the time it took and a guess as to what it would take to do with my other tools. Say I had to do 10 of these, I would take the time to make templates with the SO then go the conventional tools for faster turn out then cutting them all with the SO. Pretty much on par for ones of something.

I would say I've spent 40 hours with reading, playing and cutting. At this point I'm just starting to feel that I have the hang of it. Things are starting to feel natural. Things like making sure you have the right diameter of bit to match the bit in the machine. Using a lower left handle to place the part. And a lot of other details that at first seemed a bit much but not anymore.

I was dreading learning fusion, it reminds me of other cad programs from the old days. I like designer type programs over cad programs so I was very glad that several people have worked out plug-ins for sketch-up so I can just work as I have been. All the more power to you for learning fusion, your a better man then I am.

I don't know much about CNC machines other then they take up a lot of shop space which I do not have..... I was thinking of a small one but then project like this could not be done. I don't know the cost of the SO as they have not started selling them to the general public again. So lets say it will sell for $2100, and lets say you wanted to make this unit that I just did. I think a decent cnc would be double that. How ever there is a lot of other factors involved. A cnc can be left cutting your parts while you do something else, the SO it is you that are moving the router around.... Want to do an inlay in your dinning room floor? SO can do that.

All I can say for sure is that I'm glad I spent the money and got mine. The dent in the pocket book is long past and now it just fun thinking of what I might want to use it for.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250155 by BuckeyeDennis » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:10 am

Thanks Ed, that’s all good food for thought. There will probably be some sort of CNC in my future. Like you (and probably the majority of us), my available shop space is a limiting factor in machine purchases. I’ll be following your SO journey with much interest.

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250156 by twistsol » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:07 am

There are also things the Shaper Origin can do that no flatbed CNC machine, regardless of cost, could ever do.

https://community.shapertools.com/t/origin-on-the-job-site-large-scale-floor-inlay/1286

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Thanks much,

Chris Phelps

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250271 by reible » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:29 am

I did get a short while to work on this project today. The way it is looking it will be Tuesday before I get to sand it and put it together. Today I did the pocket holes.

The other day I did the track, needed to countersink the screws and then mount the t-track. Turns out I don't have a countersink that is small enough so I had to use a drill bit, thank goodness for the shopsmith drill press to set the depth and make this go pretty fast.

Pocket holes were done with my very first kreg jig, and I still find it useful on projects like this.

Two holes on one side and four on the other.

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It's pretty close but I want to sand it before I do much more to it.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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Re: Today in the shop (SOing again)

#250312 by reible » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:59 pm

Progress but still not finished.

Today I cut the waste blocks, I had material for 7 of them so I made 7 of them. I had time to sand all the parts as well, so this is what it looks like at this point in time:

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I've also made a small change to how I was thinking I was going to go. The two pieces with the 20mm holes are connected by the screws in the t-track at this point. I was going to pull the screws and then glue the two together. Then I was thinking if I do that and some problem shows up or I wreck one the parts then I would have to make both parts over....... What I did was add screws to the back side so if there are issues I can now still get them apart.

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If all goes well tomorrow I'll screw it together and then mark for the mounting holes to the MFT. The MFT has a t-track that runs along the outside edge and this will be where I put two holes so bolt can be used to mount it to the table but removed if I want to use it some place else.

I may also add a couple of threaded inserts to the portion that mounts to the top. A knob from under could then secure it that way, and again not be in the way if I want to use it on another work bench.

So a little closer today.

Ed

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{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]

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