Shopsmith DEMO

[JPG]

. . .
Oops. I was told in a PM a few days ago that I should try hard to stay "on subject" ...on a woodworking subject that is. Sorry, I goofed again but I am trying. Really. I am!

Turn about fair play?;)

Tain't deserved!

WH500 -

Enjoyed the dissertation!!!!!! Much well said!

[charlese]

I particularly liked the analogy of SPTs to Barbie dolls.

Hey Steve (wh500special) Could you elaborate on that analogy?

[pennview]

Steve, nice read. I agree especially with you on the price issue. When I bought my first Shopsmith in August 1980, I paid about $1,000 after watching a couple of demonstrations at a mall. I had a table saw at the time and little else, but wanted a drill press and lathe, and with limited space, the Shopsmith fit the bill. I sold the table saw and bought the Shopsmith. If you watched a demo at a mall today and heard the price, you'd likely want to do some comparison shopping in the tool catalogs, and that's where today's Shopsmith gets clobbered.

For the price of a new one, you can outfit your shop with decent tools and have money to spare for all the extras and some lumber. And I think most guys come away from a demo thinking just that. While forums like this one and used sales on Ebay and Craiglist demonstrate continued interest in Shopsmith, the new ones simply cost too much.

[dusty]

Steve, nice read. I agree especially with you on the price issue. When I bought my first Shopsmith in August 1980, I paid about $1,000 after watching a couple of demonstrations at a mall. I had a table saw at the time and little else, but wanted a drill press and lathe, and with limited space, the Shopsmith fit the bill. I sold the table saw and bought the Shopsmith. If you watched a demo at a mall today and heard the price, you'd likely want to do some comparison shopping in the tool catalogs, and that's where today's Shopsmith gets clobbered.

For the price of a new one, you can outfit your shop with decent tools and have money to spare for all the extras and some lumber. And I think most guys come away from a demo thinking just that. While forums like this one and used sales on Ebay and Craiglist demonstrate continued interest in Shopsmith, the new ones simply cost too much.

There is no argument about whether or not the price of a Mark V/7 today is possibly a limiting factor. No doubt $3900 makes many would be owners think twice.

Yes, you can go to many places and buy woodworking equipment that costs less. If you look no further than what you get for your money - a table saw, a drill press, a lathe, a sanding station and a boring machine (don't think you find one of these) - you will come away with spare change. BUT - twenty years from now I doubt that you will be using those same machines. You will most likely have had to replace them because they wore out or broke down prematurely.

If one is going to buy a $3900 Shopsmith it will because he needs versatility in a small shop and demands a quality machine that will last. Obviously, I think the machine is well worth that.

I paid less than half that price for mine and I got a belt sander in the package deal. But in today's dollars there is not much difference. When I bought my Mark V, a gallon of gasoline was $1.12; about 1/3 of what we pay today. Median household income then was $29,000 a year; about the same ratio.

The cost of a Mark 7 is significant but it is not out of line with the general economy.

[Ed in Tampa]

[quote="dusty"]Yes, you can go to many places and buy woodworking equipment that costs less. If you look no further than what you get for your money - a table saw, a drill press, a lathe, a sanding station and a boring machine (don't think you find one of these) - you will come away with spare change. BUT - twenty years from now I doubt that you will be using those same machines. You will most likely have had to replace them because they wore out or broke down prematurely.

QUOTE]

Dusty
I think most machines that I would buy to add up to $3900 would be around 50+ years. I know of tablesaws bought for $700 that have been doing almost 24/7 duty for last 20 years and are going strong.
As for the boring machine most radial arm drill presses handle this job without a problem.

As for prices compare what a Unisaw cost then and costs now almost the same. Compare a large screen TV the cost is less than half. Compare cars (equal cars not the ones to day with play stations installed) about the same.

Compare computers today we get 100 times or more power at half the cost.

$3900 is a whopping cost when you consider most people are going to go one or two ways with the SS. Most will use it for home repair/remodel and a good drill press and saw will surfice. Others will go into lathe work and a good lather and really nice bandsaw will surfice.

I went into furniture building and while I really like my SS a nice tablesaw, drill press and some really nice power hand tools would have been just as good.


Basically what I'm saying is most people saw, drill and turn on the SS.
A really nice tablesaw is $800, A really nice lathe is a $1500 and drill press is a $400 That leaves $1200 or more to buy some really nice hand tools, wood and finishing supplies.

[pennview]

These Shopsmiths are really durable machines, but they are quite complex in comparison to ordinary woodworking equipment. Fortunately, Shopsmith is around to supply us with spares. The only issue I've had with my 30 year old Shopsmith was a broken on-off switch. But, there is nothing on your average table saw to wear out except for a few bearings, a belt or three, and a motor, all of which are typically standard sizes and not too tough to find. The rest is iron and steel castings or stampings. Short of dropping it off the back of the truck, it'll last a long time -- indefinitely I'd expect, unless you park it in the rain. The same goes for a lathe or drill press and many other machines. Now if you abuse these things, beat on them with hammers and such, you can destroy them, but short of that, like the proverbial Timex, they keep on ticking.

With regard to price, perhaps the Shopsmith has merely kept pace with inflation. On the other hand, many solid woodworking machines have not and are real bargains in comparison, especially if you look at tools coming from Asia, where most of our tools are coming from these days whether we like it or not. I don't wish to start a flame war, but you can take a look at the Smithy SuperShop at about half the price of a Shopsmith as an example. In my view, it's just hard to compete when what you're selling is twice the price.

[dusty]

Yes, you can go to many places and buy woodworking equipment that costs less. If you look no further than what you get for your money - a table saw, a drill press, a lathe, a sanding station and a boring machine (don't think you find one of these) - you will come away with spare change. BUT - twenty years from now I doubt that you will be using those same machines. You will most likely have had to replace them because they wore out or broke down prematurely.

QUOTE]

Dusty
I think most machines that I would buy to add up to $3900 would be around 50+ years. I know of tablesaws bought for $700 that have been doing almost 24/7 duty for last 20 years and are going strong.
As for the boring machine most radial arm drill presses handle this job without a problem.

As for prices compare what a Unisaw cost then and costs now almost the same. Compare a large screen TV the cost is less than half. Compare cars (equal cars not the ones to day with play stations installed) about the same.

Compare computers today we get 100 times or more power at half the cost.

$3900 is a whopping cost when you consider most people are going to go one or two ways with the SS. Most will use it for home repair/remodel and a good drill press and saw will surfice. Others will go into lathe work and a good lather and really nice bandsaw will surfice.

I went into furniture building and while I really like my SS a nice tablesaw, drill press and some really nice power hand tools would have been just as good.


Basically what I'm saying is most people saw, drill and turn on the SS.
A really nice tablesaw is $800, A really nice lathe is a $1500 and drill press is a $400 That leaves $1200 or more to buy some really nice hand tools, wood and finishing supplies.

Ed, that is my point exactly. A table aw that has been around for twenty years, is still going strong and cost $700 new would be a $3000 table saw if bought today.

Equipment purchased new today, be it power tools, TVs, cars or whatever, are NOT BUILT TO LAST. As for computers, they are outdated the day after you leave the store.

$3900 is whopping price. The $1500 or so that I paid for the Shopsmith package was a whopping price. I put it on credit. Fortunately, I was full time employed then and had no kids to feed. I paid it off in 6 months. Can't do that today.

http://www.woodcraft.com/PRODUCT/206398 ... gwodm3QZiQ

[poplarguy]

Decided to add 2 cents here. If you think back, you used to see SS Demo's at fairs, occassionally at Malls and WW shows. You even saw Norm use one on early NYW mainly for Lathe work. I can even remember seeing some SS infomercial type programs many years ago.

Well I inherited my Dad's SS last year and signed up on the website for some info. So far I have not heard a peep from anyone or anything relating to SS other than via this forum. The only thing I've seen regarding SS is what I've searched out.

IMO devices that are multi-purpose are hobby or niche tools regardless of how good or bad they are(even the legendary Swiss Army Knife doesn't appeal to everyone). Biggest problem I see today is SS is not getting it name or tools out to it's potential market. I got into a discussion a few weeks ago with a coworker regarding woodworking, in the course of that discussion he knew of Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly and many other companies and some of the things they sold. When Shopsmith came up, his comment was basically "wasn't that company that used to make some kind of multi tool?". He didn't even know the company was still around. He's seen some for sale on CL but that's about the closest he's ever come to them.

Like anything else, SS will never appeal to everyone. They have a select niche that they can fill, whether it's limited space, etc. Problem is if that niche doesn't know of them, it's hard to gain them as customers. Add to that the fact that so many schools are eliminating things like ww classes/training from their curriculum and kids don't even know what wood is other than it's something that's burnt in a fireplace. Hard to sell to people something they don't even have the fainest idea what it is let alone how to use it.

I don't see selling only to current users maintaining or saving the company. Eventually many people will lose interest, die or something will come up to take their attention elsewhere. You need to 'at a minimum' maintain your base and hopefully expand it or it will wither. I don't have the silver bullet for how to fix it, but doing nothing won't fix it either.

My 2 cents.

Paul

One thing SS must do is keep its customers serviced. For example, I was interested in the new Mark 7 and asked for a DVD; none made. I was sent a notice of a "sale" on the 3300 Dust Collector which I ordered. To date I've waited over 7 weeks for delivery, the 10" conversion for the velcro sanding disc, over 6 week wait, other molding cutters- I gave up and canceled. Yes, you can get items on E-Bay, but with shipping, it can get pricey. So, come on ShopSmith, keep the loyalists serviced!

[dusty]

These Shopsmiths are really durable machines, but they are quite complex in comparison to ordinary woodworking equipment. Fortunately, Shopsmith is around to supply us with spares. The only issue I've had with my 30 year old Shopsmith was a broken on-off switch. But, there is nothing on your average table saw to wear out except for a few bearings, a belt or three, and a motor, all of which are typically standard sizes and not too tough to find. The rest is iron and steel castings or stampings. Short of dropping it off the back of the truck, it'll last a long time -- indefinitely I'd expect, unless you park it in the rain. The same goes for a lathe or drill press and many other machines. Now if you abuse these things, beat on them with hammers and such, you can destroy them, but short of that, like the proverbial Timex, they keep on ticking.

With regard to price, perhaps the Shopsmith has merely kept pace with inflation. On the other hand, many solid woodworking machines have not and are real bargains in comparison, especially if you look at tools coming from Asia, where most of our tools are coming from these days whether we like it or not. I don't wish to start a flame war, but you can take a look at the Smithy SuperShop at about half the price of a Shopsmith as an example. In my view, it's just hard to compete when what you're selling is twice the price.

You'll not start a flame war but you will meet with an opposing opinion. Example: Don'y discuss SuperShop and Shopsmith in the same breathe. They are similar in many respects if all you are doing is reading the brochures. Ten years after putting them into service the differences begin to show. I can still get reliable customer support for my Mark V.

Yes, many of the tools that you might buy today come from that same factory many miles away in a distant foreign land. The only difference may be the color that they were painted. Yes, they will cost less and MAYBE they will hold up to the rigors of use. Oh, you will most likely get them for less too - but they may be worth less in the long haul.

[pennview]

You know, Dusty, there really isn't much to go wrong with that other machine besides the motor and controller and from looking at the parts diagram, the motor looks like is has a standard mount (something like a type 56 mount). I've got just about enough Shopsmith gear, but if I could find a used one of those other machines cheap enough, I'd at least give it a really close look.